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	<title>Comments on: The Order of Worship: Sunday Mornings Set in Concrete</title>
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		<title>By: brotherjohnny</title>
		<link>http://brotherjohnny.wordpress.com/2008/01/17/the-order-of-worship-sunday-mornings-set-in-concrete/#comment-801</link>
		<dc:creator>brotherjohnny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:37:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brotherjohnny.wordpress.com/2008/01/17/the-order-of-worship-sunday-mornings-set-in-concrete/#comment-801</guid>
		<description>This comment is being posted almost a year and a half since the last one in this thread.
Just to be fair and honest, I want to say that while I still believe that there are tons of problems and issues with &#039;traditional church&#039; I am not nearly as narrow minded about church form as I was when this blog entry was written.

The truth is that there are issues and problems with people, and people are the building blocks of any church structure.

I have never been a part of any of Frank Viola&#039;s churches, and have never been &#039;under&#039; his ministry personally, but I have been involved in other radical expressions of &quot;organic church life&quot;.

That particular chapter in my life is over now and I am currently pursuing the Lord in a fresh way; a way in which I am taking one step at a time, one day at a time, and walking in the light that I have in that moment.

And this is not simply an &#039;individualistic&#039; walk. While I have rediscovered the blessed reality of the individualistic side of my relationship with Christ, I have not divorced myself with my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Community is more than the things which we make it out to be.
Community IS.
It is up to us how we function within it in all of it&#039;s manifold expressions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This comment is being posted almost a year and a half since the last one in this thread.<br />
Just to be fair and honest, I want to say that while I still believe that there are tons of problems and issues with &#8216;traditional church&#8217; I am not nearly as narrow minded about church form as I was when this blog entry was written.</p>
<p>The truth is that there are issues and problems with people, and people are the building blocks of any church structure.</p>
<p>I have never been a part of any of Frank Viola&#8217;s churches, and have never been &#8216;under&#8217; his ministry personally, but I have been involved in other radical expressions of &#8220;organic church life&#8221;.</p>
<p>That particular chapter in my life is over now and I am currently pursuing the Lord in a fresh way; a way in which I am taking one step at a time, one day at a time, and walking in the light that I have in that moment.</p>
<p>And this is not simply an &#8216;individualistic&#8217; walk. While I have rediscovered the blessed reality of the individualistic side of my relationship with Christ, I have not divorced myself with my brothers and sisters in Christ.</p>
<p>Community is more than the things which we make it out to be.<br />
Community IS.<br />
It is up to us how we function within it in all of it&#8217;s manifold expressions.</p>
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		<title>By: PAGAN CHRISTIANITY: Has anyone read the Book? &#171; EMISSARY^7 (G²)</title>
		<link>http://brotherjohnny.wordpress.com/2008/01/17/the-order-of-worship-sunday-mornings-set-in-concrete/#comment-499</link>
		<dc:creator>PAGAN CHRISTIANITY: Has anyone read the Book? &#171; EMISSARY^7 (G²)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 02:36:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brotherjohnny.wordpress.com/2008/01/17/the-order-of-worship-sunday-mornings-set-in-concrete/#comment-499</guid>
		<description>[...] http://brotherjohnny.wordpress.com/2008/01/17/the-order-of-worship-sunday-mornings-set-in-concrete/ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://brotherjohnny.wordpress.com/2008/01/17/the-order-of-worship-sunday-mornings-set-in-concrete/" rel="nofollow">http://brotherjohnny.wordpress.com/2008/01/17/the-order-of-worship-sunday-mornings-set-in-concrete/</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: brotherjohnny</title>
		<link>http://brotherjohnny.wordpress.com/2008/01/17/the-order-of-worship-sunday-mornings-set-in-concrete/#comment-498</link>
		<dc:creator>brotherjohnny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jun 2008 16:10:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brotherjohnny.wordpress.com/2008/01/17/the-order-of-worship-sunday-mornings-set-in-concrete/#comment-498</guid>
		<description>UPDATE

As many of you, &quot;my readers&quot;, already know, I have retired from the realm of &#039;Bloggerdom&#039;, however....
I wanted to relay to you all, that to the Glory of our Lord Jesus Christ, the young lady whom I mentioned in the above article has been cancer free since January of 2005!!!

Praise the Lord!!!!!!!

And &quot;Thank You&quot; to the dear brother (you know who you are) who called me with this report!!!

Healing belongs to the church through our Lord Jesus Christ!!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>UPDATE</p>
<p>As many of you, &#8220;my readers&#8221;, already know, I have retired from the realm of &#8216;Bloggerdom&#8217;, however&#8230;.<br />
I wanted to relay to you all, that to the Glory of our Lord Jesus Christ, the young lady whom I mentioned in the above article has been cancer free since January of 2005!!!</p>
<p>Praise the Lord!!!!!!!</p>
<p>And &#8220;Thank You&#8221; to the dear brother (you know who you are) who called me with this report!!!</p>
<p>Healing belongs to the church through our Lord Jesus Christ!!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Lollar</title>
		<link>http://brotherjohnny.wordpress.com/2008/01/17/the-order-of-worship-sunday-mornings-set-in-concrete/#comment-381</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Lollar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brotherjohnny.wordpress.com/2008/01/17/the-order-of-worship-sunday-mornings-set-in-concrete/#comment-381</guid>
		<description>Hey, Johnny. Just thought you and your readers might enjoy reading a new interview with George Barna and Frank Viola. I just posted it today: &lt;a href=&quot;http://thin-edge.org/2008/02/27/the-thin-edge-hosts-joint-interview-with-barna-viola/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Thin Edge hosts joint interview with Barna &amp; Viola&lt;/a&gt;. Thanks for your review!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, Johnny. Just thought you and your readers might enjoy reading a new interview with George Barna and Frank Viola. I just posted it today: <a href="http://thin-edge.org/2008/02/27/the-thin-edge-hosts-joint-interview-with-barna-viola/" rel="nofollow">The Thin Edge hosts joint interview with Barna &amp; Viola</a>. Thanks for your review!</p>
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		<title>By: Too big for a comment&#8230;. &#171; PHOENIX RISING</title>
		<link>http://brotherjohnny.wordpress.com/2008/01/17/the-order-of-worship-sunday-mornings-set-in-concrete/#comment-362</link>
		<dc:creator>Too big for a comment&#8230;. &#171; PHOENIX RISING</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 03:00:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brotherjohnny.wordpress.com/2008/01/17/the-order-of-worship-sunday-mornings-set-in-concrete/#comment-362</guid>
		<description>[...] Too big for a&#160;comment&#8230;. January 23, 2008 Posted by brotherjohnny in Christ, church, conversation.  trackback  Thank you all for your comments on my last post. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Too big for a&nbsp;comment&#8230;. January 23, 2008 Posted by brotherjohnny in Christ, church, conversation.  trackback  Thank you all for your comments on my last post. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: macjr</title>
		<link>http://brotherjohnny.wordpress.com/2008/01/17/the-order-of-worship-sunday-mornings-set-in-concrete/#comment-361</link>
		<dc:creator>macjr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:13:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brotherjohnny.wordpress.com/2008/01/17/the-order-of-worship-sunday-mornings-set-in-concrete/#comment-361</guid>
		<description>Just because you alluded to the things you did, (recent authors suggesting) and obviously because I disagree with some of what you have written here, I will post my thoughts. Just to put a different perspective in play here.

You wrote: “The first century church meeting was not patterned after the Jewish synagogue services as some recent authors have suggested. Instead, it was totally unique to the culture.&quot;

Being one of those who have suggested this in writing, I will respond a little to your statement. First of all, I guess when it all comes down to it, it all depends upon who you read and what or who you choose to believe concerning what you read, for there are always those with opposing points of view. This is of course all good, this is why we have to sort through it and not just be content to find those who agree with us.

As for your statement above, obviously I disagree with it, as do many others I have read. This would also be true with the statement that the early church (structure or form) was totally unique to the culture. 

Interestingly enough, it certainly seems that much of what we have in the forms of the NT church and yes, even much of its liturgy, was and is also clearly evident in the synagogues. How is this then explained away? It most certainly cannot simply be stated that it is irrelevant or was nonexistent. Just for example check this out concerning the local synagogue: 

There was the public reading of the scriptures, the teaching of the scriptures, prayer, worship, local presbyteries (a council of elders in each assembly), a lead elder, men and woman gathered together for common worship in one place, discipline of offending members, teaching of the children, etc. 

The overlap of these two gatherings, the church and the synagogue, is simply too much to be over looked or to be seen as insignificant or simply happenstance. Besides, this heritage was the common heritage of all the primary founders of the early church, including the Lord Jesus Christ himself and he never, not once spoke against the synagogues, their existence, form, etc. He did confront the issues of their hearts, however. In fact, Jesus himself, as was his custom, went to worship in the local synagogue and he also taught in them. This practice was shared by others and was Paul’s first choice in arriving in any new community to preach the gospel. The sheer weight of the evidence itself says there had to be an all too real connection. This is a far cry from the early church being in anyway, unique, generally, in the culture of the day. &quot;Unique&quot; is certainly a poor choice of words here. 

You also wrote: &quot;We have little evidence to suggest that the first Christians attempted to perpetuate the style of the synagogue&quot;

IMHO, there is seemingly more evidence to support that the pattern they used for the early church was much closer to the synagogue model than not. 

While there is more that you have written above that I disagree with, let it suffice for to simply say this, that in the end none of this is what truly matters. What does matter is the spirit and heart with which we live out our lives, in and before the Lord Jesus Christ! Again, as always, it has to with our hearts lived out in and before the Lord Jesus Christ and nor primarily the forms in which we have our gatherings, to worship, praise, pray, teach, train, equip and or receive the Word of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I honor and respect your passion and zeal; I always have, even when I disagree with what you write.

As we hashed some of this out before, so I understand a little of where you are coming from, I think, and I realize that we are not in the same place. Yet still, there is respect for you brother, as always.

Every Blessing in the Lord Jesus Christ, brother!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just because you alluded to the things you did, (recent authors suggesting) and obviously because I disagree with some of what you have written here, I will post my thoughts. Just to put a different perspective in play here.</p>
<p>You wrote: “The first century church meeting was not patterned after the Jewish synagogue services as some recent authors have suggested. Instead, it was totally unique to the culture.&#8221;</p>
<p>Being one of those who have suggested this in writing, I will respond a little to your statement. First of all, I guess when it all comes down to it, it all depends upon who you read and what or who you choose to believe concerning what you read, for there are always those with opposing points of view. This is of course all good, this is why we have to sort through it and not just be content to find those who agree with us.</p>
<p>As for your statement above, obviously I disagree with it, as do many others I have read. This would also be true with the statement that the early church (structure or form) was totally unique to the culture. </p>
<p>Interestingly enough, it certainly seems that much of what we have in the forms of the NT church and yes, even much of its liturgy, was and is also clearly evident in the synagogues. How is this then explained away? It most certainly cannot simply be stated that it is irrelevant or was nonexistent. Just for example check this out concerning the local synagogue: </p>
<p>There was the public reading of the scriptures, the teaching of the scriptures, prayer, worship, local presbyteries (a council of elders in each assembly), a lead elder, men and woman gathered together for common worship in one place, discipline of offending members, teaching of the children, etc. </p>
<p>The overlap of these two gatherings, the church and the synagogue, is simply too much to be over looked or to be seen as insignificant or simply happenstance. Besides, this heritage was the common heritage of all the primary founders of the early church, including the Lord Jesus Christ himself and he never, not once spoke against the synagogues, their existence, form, etc. He did confront the issues of their hearts, however. In fact, Jesus himself, as was his custom, went to worship in the local synagogue and he also taught in them. This practice was shared by others and was Paul’s first choice in arriving in any new community to preach the gospel. The sheer weight of the evidence itself says there had to be an all too real connection. This is a far cry from the early church being in anyway, unique, generally, in the culture of the day. &#8220;Unique&#8221; is certainly a poor choice of words here. </p>
<p>You also wrote: &#8220;We have little evidence to suggest that the first Christians attempted to perpetuate the style of the synagogue&#8221;</p>
<p>IMHO, there is seemingly more evidence to support that the pattern they used for the early church was much closer to the synagogue model than not. </p>
<p>While there is more that you have written above that I disagree with, let it suffice for to simply say this, that in the end none of this is what truly matters. What does matter is the spirit and heart with which we live out our lives, in and before the Lord Jesus Christ! Again, as always, it has to with our hearts lived out in and before the Lord Jesus Christ and nor primarily the forms in which we have our gatherings, to worship, praise, pray, teach, train, equip and or receive the Word of the Lord Jesus Christ.</p>
<p>I honor and respect your passion and zeal; I always have, even when I disagree with what you write.</p>
<p>As we hashed some of this out before, so I understand a little of where you are coming from, I think, and I realize that we are not in the same place. Yet still, there is respect for you brother, as always.</p>
<p>Every Blessing in the Lord Jesus Christ, brother!</p>
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		<title>By: marie</title>
		<link>http://brotherjohnny.wordpress.com/2008/01/17/the-order-of-worship-sunday-mornings-set-in-concrete/#comment-360</link>
		<dc:creator>marie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 00:55:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brotherjohnny.wordpress.com/2008/01/17/the-order-of-worship-sunday-mornings-set-in-concrete/#comment-360</guid>
		<description>Hey Johnny!

Jerald has ordered this book and is excited about reading it. We have a good friend, John Brown, who is pretty much in tune with the way you feel about the subject, although he does attend New River and has had a huge impact on how we do church. 

Since Jerald and I have come from the &quot;traditional&quot; background and it was ground into our heads as being the &quot;only way to do things&quot;, it has been a little harder for Jerald, especially, to break away from that mold. I was so glad to be set free from where we were a couple of years ago that I have been open to just about anything, although you surely stretched my brain on that &quot;soccer&quot; post over at Green Pastures where we first virtually met (for which I&#039;m very grateful). :-D

Anyway, all this to say thank you for posting and reviewing this book. I can&#039;t wait to see what God tells Jerald through it! :)

Many blessings Johnny and a most glorious weekend to you! I hope you will e-mail, if not post, as the LORD does His awesome work through you.

My brother, Mother, and I are heading down to South Georgia (Odum)tomorrow to see my nephew Alan, who is in prison there. It is always a great joy to see him. Hopefully, the snow that is expected will not keep us there!

See ya Brother!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Johnny!</p>
<p>Jerald has ordered this book and is excited about reading it. We have a good friend, John Brown, who is pretty much in tune with the way you feel about the subject, although he does attend New River and has had a huge impact on how we do church. </p>
<p>Since Jerald and I have come from the &#8220;traditional&#8221; background and it was ground into our heads as being the &#8220;only way to do things&#8221;, it has been a little harder for Jerald, especially, to break away from that mold. I was so glad to be set free from where we were a couple of years ago that I have been open to just about anything, although you surely stretched my brain on that &#8220;soccer&#8221; post over at Green Pastures where we first virtually met (for which I&#8217;m very grateful). <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':-D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Anyway, all this to say thank you for posting and reviewing this book. I can&#8217;t wait to see what God tells Jerald through it! <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Many blessings Johnny and a most glorious weekend to you! I hope you will e-mail, if not post, as the LORD does His awesome work through you.</p>
<p>My brother, Mother, and I are heading down to South Georgia (Odum)tomorrow to see my nephew Alan, who is in prison there. It is always a great joy to see him. Hopefully, the snow that is expected will not keep us there!</p>
<p>See ya Brother!</p>
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		<title>By: timbob</title>
		<link>http://brotherjohnny.wordpress.com/2008/01/17/the-order-of-worship-sunday-mornings-set-in-concrete/#comment-357</link>
		<dc:creator>timbob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 05:58:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brotherjohnny.wordpress.com/2008/01/17/the-order-of-worship-sunday-mornings-set-in-concrete/#comment-357</guid>
		<description>Greetings.  People like traditions.  For some reason, we like to do the same things week in and week out; year in and year out.  We spent Christmas in Orlando and while my wife really missed the traditional &quot;sameness&quot; of that day, I loved the change.  (Even if it was in dizzyworld)  

Once we get establish our agenda and set about to fulfil that agenda, the focus goes from the Lord Jesus to &quot;our agenda.&quot;  We all need to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches; even if it means putting aside our itinerary.  (As it most likely will)

Have a great day in Jesus and a great blogger break.  

timbob</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greetings.  People like traditions.  For some reason, we like to do the same things week in and week out; year in and year out.  We spent Christmas in Orlando and while my wife really missed the traditional &#8220;sameness&#8221; of that day, I loved the change.  (Even if it was in dizzyworld)  </p>
<p>Once we get establish our agenda and set about to fulfil that agenda, the focus goes from the Lord Jesus to &#8220;our agenda.&#8221;  We all need to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches; even if it means putting aside our itinerary.  (As it most likely will)</p>
<p>Have a great day in Jesus and a great blogger break.  </p>
<p>timbob</p>
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