Thank you all for your comments on my last post.
In fact, this post started out as something of a reply to some comments left on my last post, so please feel free to read it and the comments afterward.
I should know better than to post such controversial statements and then expect to take a leave of absence from blogging.
In all truthfulness, I have stopped by a few of my favorite spots, as usual, so I haven’t been as absent as I probably need to be.
Thanks Timbob, for your comments. Yes, when our itinerary doesn’t line up with His, then we have a real issue, and something has to give.
The power of tradition goes much deeper than we realize,…although it, tradition, is not always a bad thing.
Brushing our teeth, cleaning our houses, going to work, paying the bills….
One could say that they do these things in a ‘traditional’ manner (maybe even ‘religiously’ etc…) so I don’t want anyone to think that I am simply opposed to ‘tradition’ in and of itself.
But anyway, thanks for your comments here, and I agree, that there is much of our own itinerary which needs putting away.
Peace to you, my brother!
Marie, I have been equally blessed by our relationship here on the web and hope to stay in touch with you and Jerald. Your last email was very encouraging to me. I will pray for Alan’s situation, all though it sounds like he is smack dab in the middle of the will of God.
Peace!
Brother Phil,
I am worried that I have again (possibly) been misunderstood.
Everything that you just quoted, were quotes lifted directly from Franks book, so, please don’t think that they were aimed directly at you. They were not, although I do agree with them.
Rather than go ‘point for point’ at this time, Phil, I’m just going to say a few (hundred) things for the time being, and then maybe, if you are interested, we could pick this discussion up at a later time.
Amen. Who we read. Yes, and you’re right, we shouldn’t only read who we agree with.
Concerning the synagogue:
I am totally convinced that Jesus taught in the synagogue because it was a culturally Jewish thing to do, not because there was anything divine about the synagogue system itself.
Nowhere in the old testament will you find God establishing the synagogue, and you won’t find it in the N.T. either.
As mentioned in the article above, I can find no ‘divine decree’ for it’s (the synagogues) existence.
Just because we find Jesus, Paul and others preaching in the synagogue doesn’t indicate that the synagogue was some type of shadow of the church. It simply means that the Lord operates within the context of the times, circumstances and events of reality.
Consider Paul going to Mars Hill and reasoning with the Pagan philosophers there.
Surely this doesn’t mean that we should try to recreate and modify this philosophical environment every Sunday so that we have historical and ‘biblical’ precedent for doing so.
The synagogue was simply the place where the law was being taught, so what better place for Jesus to come in and begin revealing Himself to being the fulfillment of that law?
It is the Lords way to meet men where they are at. He sees nothing intrinsically ’spiritual’ about a synagogue or the way in which it operates.
The point of it all was to show that Jesus was, indeed, Savior and Messiah, fulfilling the scriptures.
At best, I would say that the synagogues were used of God because that is where and how men explored and sought to teach the scriptures. They were mans institutions, not God’s, but, yes, God is sovereign.
God is quite the revolutionary, you know. He has a way of entering the scene, disrupting mans programs, and revealing the Truth.
God, in Christ, is a Liberator, and I believe that it is His way to move us further and further away from men’s religious concepts while moving us into deeper communion with Himself.
“So what about elders, and servants, and pastors, and teachers, etc? Weren’t all of these functions in the synagogue?” (reasonable question)
I think the truth is that these functions exist,… period.
Haven’t you ever known someone who met all of the qualifications in I Tim., but who wasn’t ‘ordained’ to some office? And usually because they just aren’t interested in all the hoopla involved with so called ‘church’.
Surely you have known a teacher…
I mean…
That’s just what they do! They are gifted to teach!!
And a pastor? I’m not totally sure that I even know what a pastor really is. After all, that little word is only mentioned ONE TIME in the entire New Testament. (And ironically enough, today it has become the central theme of much of Christianity).
My guess is that a pastor is one who really cares for the Lords people, who wants to see that they are provided for, and protected, nourished and raised up into being more than just ‘soul savers’, and more, so much more, than passive pew sitters!!!
But how many times is the word ‘brothers’ mentioned?
Hmmmmmmmmmm………
I believe 100% that it is impossible to know what an authentic church meeting is if it is not related to a group of people who live within a reasonable context of community.
I know that is an extreme statement, and it may very well not be saying what I am really trying to say here….but I think you know what I mean.
I’m talking primarily about brother (and sister)- hood.
Yes, we can have deep connections ‘outside of time and space’. I fully believe and experience that myself, but there is something divine about genuine community life where one is able to DISCOVER who and WHY elders are ‘elders’ and marvel at how they just don’t really care about wearing that title.
Who are the teachers?
Stick around long enough, and teachers will simply be known. Etc…
Jesus, Paul, and the other disciples maneuvered, first off, where God sent them.
‘They are talking about me in there. Go tell them the truth’.
Not so much, ‘I appreciate the system that they are using and expect it to be carried over for all time…, so go morph that system into my church’.
In fact, the more one reads through the new testament, the more we begin to see the fact that ‘God doesn’t dwell in temples made with human hands’, thus making it more and more obvious that temples, synagogues, etc… are really quite unnecessary.
Score 1 for liberty!!
FREEDOM FROM THE OLD WAYS OF HAVING TO MEET IN A SPECIAL PLACE TO WORSHIP GOD OR PARTAKE IN THE MINISTRY OF HIS PEOPLE
‘They met daily from house to house…’
“Okay, I agree. It’s not so much about the buildings, but my concern is with the pattern of operation”(reasonable concern)
Well, if that is your concern, then I would say that a good place to start would be in I Corinthians 14, particularly the area concerning the full participation of the entire group.
Paul ENCOURAGED that ALL present in the church meetings share something, and to even prophecy.
Score 2 for liberty!!
“You! Yes you!! The one who was formerly alienated from God by your wicked works, and sinful ways!! You, who have been redeemed by Jesus the blood of Jesus Christ, and who possess the very Spirit of Christ!!! The one who, according to all those who do not believe in the work of Jesus the Messiah, should have no right to speak…..
SPEAK!!
SHARE YOUR REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE ENTIRE BODY!!!
BRING YOUR SONG OR YOUR POEM, OR YOUR WORDS OF FAITH!!! AND HELP TO BUILD UP THE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST!!!!
PROPHECY!!!!”
In other words, the Lord knows, and so do we, that we just don’t need all that hullabaloo that much of today’s ‘Christianity’ has to offer, including it’s modern system of operation.
What the church needs, primarily, is a living revelation of Jesus Christ, and nowhere do we find, in scripture, or anywhere else, that this is to be the product or result of the typical Sunday morning routine that is offered to the Lords people on any given Sunday.
Besides ALL of this, Phil, I truly am no scholar or church history expert, and therefore do not have the experience nor first hand research to answer all of the questions that could be asked about these things, but I do believe that Frank Viola, and many others have discovered some fresh insight as to the roots of our modern church practices. It is very well researched and footnoted.
I will close in saying this; I would recommend that you get the book, read the entire thing for yourself and then argue where you feel they are wrong, specifically with historical support.
Beyond all of this….
So far beyond it all….
I stand with you in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior!
Your Brother,
Johnny
Ok Johnny, I think I see where some of the problem is. As a preface let me say that I didn’t take what you wrote personally, however, since I have written that which was obviously in opposition to what you posted, and we dialogued about this recently, I felt I should respond.
I truly am relieved that you haven’t taken anything the wrong way, brother.
Also, I didn’t say we should only read those we agree with, quite the contrary. I wrote: “I guess when it all comes down to it, it all depends upon who you read and what or who you choose to believe concerning what you read, for there are always those with opposing points of view. This is of course all good, this is why we have to sort through it and not just be content to find those who agree with us.”
I actually said that you said that we shouldn’t only read those whom we agree with…but thanks nonetheless!
Yes, if you would like, I could give you a lot of historical references and documentation to support what I am trying to say regarding the early church form and its absorption of the synagogue form early on. However, as you know this truly does become cumbersome in a comments section. As I have already written a lengthy response here. Yet, if you are genuinely wanting some of these, let me know and I will gladly put some together for your examination.
Maybe later. I really am hoping to take something of a break soon (it’s not that you are ‘holding me up’. I’m here, writing, by my own free will).
As for responding to your above post, let me say that this time around there is a lot that I actually agree with here, so I will not respond to those things except to say in a general way, Amen.
I’m glad to hear it…and ‘amen’ again!
However, your comments concerning the synagogue issue, specifically, I will try and bring some more clarity to what you have said, that I think misperceives where I most certainly am coming from regarding all of this.
First, let me say that I am only declaring that the early church very naturally drew from the synagogue model and there is broad historical support for this. However, I am not saying that the synagogue system is something that we should desire to return to, automatically, or as an answer in and of itself.
My position, as I have tried to state previously, is that of heart versus form. Even if we were to nail down the form of the early church so that we were all in agreement as to what it was and how it worked, we would still be wrong to try and attain such a form again simply because the early church used it. This is especially true if we believed that form, in and of itself, is the answer to our problems as the church of today. Hence, my focus is once again, heart being much more crucial than form, no matter how old the form.
Well said. And thank you.
But this where I see things differently, and I believe that Paul saw them differently as well.
On what point in particular?
Actually on heart and form (or maybe I should say ‘function’). See, Paul saw a close link between the two:
I Cor 14:24-32
But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all,the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you. What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent.For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged,and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
It is when the WHOLE CHURCH is functioning that the secrets of the heart are manifest. Granted, Paul is differentiating between the ’saved’ and the ‘lost’, but I’ll make a stretch here and say that there are many within the church who are lost within their own salvation. Furthermore, there are many ‘believers’ who really don’t BELIEVE very much in the first place, and therefore, this principle applies to them as well. Either way, the end result is that GOD WOULD BE WORSHIPED!!!!
Also, Paul describes, in a very clear and simple way, in what way the various people members may participate.
EACH ONE.
Now we are getting to THE HEART of the matter, for me.
MOST churches/pastors/systems DO NOT ENCOURAGE NOR ALLOW THIS DURING THE CORPORATE MEETINGS.
WHY NOT?
Because it would interfere with ‘the program’. Period.
Furthermore, it leaves no room for men to lord over other men.
This is, in itself a heart issue, which is, in fact, bound up with the form and function of the church meeting.
This is, in particular, is what is often swept under the rug, or even completely ignored by most pastors/teachers.
No where is it even remotely alluded to that this way of meeting is ’special’ or peculiar in any way. Paul says CLEARLY, “What then BROTHERS (not ‘pastors’, nor ‘elders’, nor ‘bishops’! NO!! BROTHERS !!!)? WHEN YOU COME TOGETHER…”
Second, no one is saying here, myself most certainly, that the synagogue system was outlined specifically in the Old Testament, or commanded, in and of itself, to be the form we must all adhere to. I do however, deeply appreciate what was trying to be accomplished in and through this form of ministry and I believe those goals are of value today and would surprisingly line up with a lot of what you have been saying, by the way, if you understood more clearly these things. I am not saying that we must return to this specific model, although I would think there is a lot of room for it, but if and only if, this was what the Lord Jesus was saying and how He was leading.
I agree, I do not know the in’s and out’s of the synagogue, and I do not see the Lord leading His people into such a system.
I am curious why the early church’s borrowing from the synagogue system, which it did, is something to be shunned, like there was, and or is, something inherently wrong with this or even a threat in acknowledging this? I do wonder why this seems to be an issue to fight against, especially when there seems to be so much historically to support it?
I am not saying that in anyway are we to try and go backwards. However, I am saying that for me, the bottom line is that form, in and of itself, is not the answer or the problem, no matter how seemingly new it is or how old it is. It all has to do with the hearts of people, in and before the Lord Jesus Christ.
Sure the Lord Jesus taught in the synagogues, in the streets, the Temple, the fields and on the roads, in homes, etc. All that Jesus did was because of what the Father was saying and doing, period. This is the pattern we need to follow, obedience in all things and at all times.
You are a House Church person and that is wonderful, but there is no where in Scripture that we are “commanded” to all be in House Churches or that House Churches is the only form we can worship the Lord Jesus in. Yet you faithfully promote this form, because you believe in it. By the way many of the synagogues throughout the Disporia, were actually house synagogues, just so you know. The House church is not, in and of itself, ordained of God, nor is the local building, institution, denomination, organization, etc. In the end, it isn’t about form, it is about our hearts in and before the Lord Jesus Christ.
You said a lot there, much that I agree with, but at this point I have already addressed the ‘heart/form’ issue above, and that is still my core concern in this conversation.
You wrote: “He sees nothing intrinsically ’spiritual’ about a synagogue or the way in which it operates.”
“He”, being the Lord Jesus. I would say amen to this and to add that this would be true of any form, in and of itself, regardless of what it is or how wonderful it seems to be working, including House Churches. Yet these places can become, by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, places where the Lord genuinely moves wonderfully and yes, even powerfully, transforming the lives and of men and women around the world.
I hope, by now, that you and anyone else reading this doesn’t think that I believe that simply relocating the modern church institution into someones house is going to change anything.
No way.
I suppose that all along I could have said ‘function’ and made myself more clear, but ‘form’ does speak of an outward expression…
Regardless…
It is about the heart. Totally. And a heart which is submitted to the Lord Jesus Christ **especially in one who ‘presides’ over the Lords people** will encourage, equip, and also allow the Lords people to share when they come together to meet.
IT IS FOR HIS SAKE, NOT MINE.
All that I can say at this point is that the Lord Himself has revealed this to me so clearly, through His word and His Spirit, that I cannot pretend as if it is not a most important matter, no matter how much I ‘like’ any pastor or preacher.
As far as I am concerned, it is the Word of the Lord.
Well, I have most certainly taken up a lot of comment space, again. I will leave this as it is for now. As always, I appreciate you and your passion for the Lord and for the people of God, brother.
Every Blessing in the Lord Jesus Christ, to you and yours, Johnny!
Thank you, Brother Phil, and anyone else who may be reading. As I have said at different times and in different places, I am only ‘trying’ to be faithful to what the Lord speaks to my own heart, and I pray that you all do the same.
I fail. And I fail miserably…
But the Lord is merciful and HE IS FAITHFUL!!!
My best wishes to you in Christ,
~Johnny
Okay folks, just so you know, I figured the best way to respond to Phil’s comment was to enter my responses into what he submitted.
My response is in *bold* print.
Thanks for stopping by, and don’t expect to hear from me for a while…
I really need to redirect my time and energy for a while.
Thank you!
~J
Briefly, before I go….
Heart and Form:
Of course heart is first. Of course, just as Christ is first. Of course.
And, yes, I believe that if you preach Christ, then you get ‘the church’, I really do believe that.
HOWEVER…
Paul ‘got the church’, but he then also had to address so many practical things (one being ‘how to meet’) so that the church could properly represent Jesus Christ.
‘Seek first the kingdom…’
Amen! I agree. But does not the reign of God first require an apprehension AND application of the cross of Christ?
Does resurrection come before or after death?
The cross always has and always will mean liberty for Gods people.
~J
Just for clarity’s sake, the following are not my comments:
***
“But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all,the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.
What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret.But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent.For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged,and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
It is when the WHOLE CHURCH is functioning that the secrets of the heart are manifest. Granted, Paul is differentiating between the ’saved’ and the ‘lost’, but I’ll make a stretch here and say that there are many within the church who are lost within their own salvation. Furthermore, there are many ‘believers’ who really don’t BELIEVE very much in the first place, and therefore, this principle applies to them as well. Either way, the end result is that GOD WOULD BE WORSHIPED!!!!
Also, Paul describes, in a very clear and simple way, in what way the various people members may participate.
EACH ONE.
Now we are getting to THE HEART of the matter, for me.
MOST churches/pastors/systems DO NOT ENCOURAGE NOR ALLOW THIS DURING THE CORPORATE MEETINGS.
WHY NOT?
Because it would interfere with ‘the program’. Period.
Furthermore, it leaves no room for men to lord over other men.
This is, in itself a heart issue, which is, in fact, bound up with the form and function of the church meeting.
This is, in particular, is what is often swept under the rug, or even completely ignored by most pastors/teachers.
No where is it even remotely alluded to that this way of meeting is ’special’ or peculiar in any way. Paul says CLEARLY, “What then BROTHERS (not ‘pastors’, nor ‘elders’, nor ‘bishops’! NO!! BROTHERS !!!)? WHEN YOU COME TOGETHER…”
***
Every Blessing in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Phil,
I fixed the ‘bold’ text issue. For some reason, it just didn’t want to ‘take’!
Sorry for any confusion.
Also,
I added I bit in to my comment, but surrounded it with double asterisks: ** **
Right now, as I type this comment, it is my hope, my prayer, that the Lord would open the eyes of ALL of our hearts, that we might see Him more and more, and that we might truly come to know what ‘the mind of Christ’ is in our lives.
I pray for a clear revelation of Jesus Christ, and that the Lord God would move upon us in such a way, as to cause us to desire, more and more, to truly be made into full grown sons and daughters, and this by His Spirit and in His Truth.
We need His grace and His mercy.
He is faithful and good.
I pray a strong apprehension of the grace of God in your life, Phil.
I love you, and I pray that our fellowship will continue to grow in the way that the Lord Jesus would have it, which I believe is simply our exchanging the Love which He first loved us with.
I ask that you would forgive me where I may have expressed myself in the wrong manner.
Blessings to you, brother.
Johnny
Johnny, thank you for fixing and clarifying the comments. Honestly, I can think of nothing that you need to apologize for brother. All is well, my dear friend, all is well.
May the Lord Jesus bless you with His ever increasing revelation, wisdom and insight.
Blessings, in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Wow. It’s almost been a year since this conversation took place. After reading all of this again and as I take in all of MY entries here, I can honestly say….
“What a jack ass!”.
Oh well. Live and learn.
Phil…,
Wherever you are and whatever you are doing, I hope that you are doing well in the Lord.
Thanks brother, for being an example of what it looks like to be a brother who lives in the Name of Jesus Christ.