*Gasp*…the “A” word?! April 18, 2008
Posted by brotherjohnny in Uncategorized.trackback
Is God unknowable?
Absolutely not.
Is there more of Him to know?
Absolutely.
Does Yashua Messiah change?
Absolutely not.
Can we?
Absolutely.
“You shall _know_ *the truth * , and *the truth * shall set you free.”
In some ways I can’t help but wonder (being narcissistic) that this recent prose might have been inspired by things over on my side of the tracks (myself and others…like myself)…
It’s all about tension Johnny…
Unknowable–no…But to quote Michael Molinos “There is so little we can ever know of him…so little we can understand in this lifetime…but we can love him…” It’s not so much that he is unknowable, but perhaps inscrutable. His Ways are not our ways…His Thoughts are high above. And while He is the Knowable One, my capacity for knowing Him challenges the process… Yet, I press on…that I might know Him and gain Him and be found in Him (though I already know HIm and have gained Him and am found in Him).
Does Yashua Messiah change…what an interesting question…at first blush no…but I dare you to read Christ: A Crisis in the Life of God by Jack Miles and not be challenged in some of those standard thoughts…
My question is why does change, and particularly HIS change scare us so much? Because that’s what we react to I think…that’s we react so sharply when someone says that…because WE are scared of change period…and so the concept of a changeless eternally weatherbeaten but unmoved God-monument is sacredly appealing. he becomes everything we are not…and would wish our Divine Protagonist to be. Perhaps “the same” means something different to God than it means to us…perhaps change means something different too…All in all though my question remains, why would it NOT be ok for God to change? Why would that NOT be ok for you? Take away the theological treatise of knowledges and verses…and real emotion…why does His changelessness connect so strongly?
As far as the word “know”…haven’t our deeper christian life circles emphasized for years that “know” represents consistently more than head knowledge or mental affirmation and that “know” is far more like “Adam KNEW his wife…” in other words…union…oneness…enjoyment…experience…
You will experience the Truth…and that experience of He who is truth will blow the chains right off of your prison walls….
But I too would use the word Absolute to describe God…He alone…though not my knowledge of Him…only Him…
Peace out broski,
Brittian
http://www.sensualjesus.wordpress.com
Hi Brittian,
Although you are not the sole inspiration for this particular post, I must admit that one of your more recent (maybe the most recent) articles did spark the desire to go ahead and write the things that I did here. Not that they are new thoughts…
Yes, the tension of being ‘held between two realms’…I get it…and I’ve had it.
Incomprehensible, infinite God face to face with the finite, imperfect mind of man. That’s great…and true, and deep…
In my experience I am discovering, more and more, that God is “gooder” than I ever thought possible. Does this mean that God has changed or does it mean that my understanding of Him has changed?
Granted, I’m not saying that God, Himself, is like a statue, carved out somehow in eternity with fixed expressions and rigid features….no..
On the contrary. If man is created in Gods image, then it is only reasonable to assume that He has a full spectrum of “human-like” attributes: A mind, a ‘heart’, a personality, character, thoughts, feelings, emotions, reasonings, attitudes, actions, reactions, interactions, etc….just like a man (rather…these qualities and aspects are reflections of the qualities and aspects of God).
Follow that thought very far, and you begin to see Jesus, God in the flesh.
Now, instead of following your advise to throw the scripture out, I would rather take a look at them to see if any of this resonates with what our brothers, the ones who have gone before us, and the ones who have gone further than us, had to say.
What do the first followers of Jesus have to say about Him? What is His character? What did He do? What was His character like? What kinds of things did He say?
Now what did these writers of holy writ have to say about His people, those who would hold firm their faith in Jesus Christ?
Well, among many other things, they say that they would be transformed into His image. Jesus Christ is the very image of God. In other words, whatever God is, it was expressed in Jesus (I know that this is nothing new for you…).
Now even the scriptures say that Jesus did many more things than what was recorded in the pages of scripture…but I assure you…whatever He did, it was good. In other words, regardless of our own thoughts about Him, including our right understandings and our misunderstandings, everything about Jesus Christ is good and not evil. i.e. Whatever Gods image is, it is “GOOD”.
Now let me be fair and explain that some of this rant has to do with my (appropriate, I believe) reaction to a faulty (no I didn’t say “false”…
) doctrine of “Tree of Life vs Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil” which, although it serves as a great metaphor in seeking to point people to their need of partaking of Christ rather than law, it falls short in that it fosters a perpetually ‘childish’ perspective when it comes to the discernment of good and evil (read hebrews…and ‘the other half’ of the New Testament if you don’t get what I am saying).
Trust me, my friend, when it comes to Jesus Christ, all that I have to share is good news, because He is the good news.
Now, good news might not be so good, to those whose hearts are full of pride and rebellion, but that’s not my battle to fight anyway, so yes there is an aspect of ‘relativity’ involved with reality. In other words, those ruled by darkness see evil as ‘good’ and ‘good’ as evil, while those ruled by God see things for what they are, in Spirit and REALITY.
But Christ is good news for the poor in spirit, the contrite in heart, those who hunger and thirst for righteousness…
Not saying that the other ‘type’ are totally without hope…it’s just that they are in for a rough time. Trust me. I know.
So where was I going with this?…oh yeah…
Here are some absolutes…
Pride…
Arrogance…
Self-centeredness…
Hatred…
Lust
Perversion.., etc.. these things are absolutely against God, and they lead to a plethora of manifestations of evil works….works that we all, as the human race, have been very familiar with. The word our older brothers used for them? Sins.
These attributes come from a different ‘father’ altogether and are not ‘of’ God.
These kinds of things are not ‘good’ and therefore in keeping with God’s character, this does not change.
What we refer to as bad ‘ethics’ are not of God’s character.
What we refer to as bad ‘morals’ are not of God’s character.
It is the Goodness of God’s character (His Spirit?), of His person, which acts as the medium to effect change in the life of the believer. However, when brothers and sisters begin to move ‘bad’ qualities around, and classify them as ‘good’ qualities, or “acceptable” qualities, they do damage to our own image of God, i.e. We lie about God’s nature, to our selves and others and therefore prove to be in alignment not with God and His true goodness, but with the evil one and his deception.
Brother, I’m not scared of change. I look forward, daily, to what the Lord is doing in my own soul. I praise Him for it, in fact.
But what is wrong with caring enough for the Lord and His people to speak up when things are being said and done, in His name, which are, by their very nature, detrimental and destructive?
There is a mass push and sway going on in much of what many people call ‘Christianity” designed to corrupt the hearts and minds of God’s people. Brittian, I don’t know you from Adam. All that I know is that some people can take what you are saying (what you have shared in your last post) and use it for this kind of purpose and agenda.
{{If you haven’t seen it with your own eyes and discerned it for yourself, then you are either blind, deaf and dumb (which I know that you are none of these), or you are much more of a ‘monk’ than your blog would lead me to believe.}}
But then again, someone, like me, can come along and read it and be inspired to share their own heart on the matter as well.
You are in a conversation….,right?
And I am a ‘voice’…, no?
I’m all for acknowledging the ‘unsearchable riches of Christ’, brother, believe me…
I’m totally sold out in getting to “know the love of God which passes all understanding”…, truly…
But…
There is a movement, and I’m not targeting you, the e.c. in general, or anyone else,…because this thing is not like “the axis of evil” which we think we can narrow down to a few individual ‘groups’ and then go to war or whatever….
What it comes down to, and I know this may sound rather “old school” to you, is that there is much today that is being preached straight from the ‘flesh’ of fallen humanity, and it resonates with the very same flesh.
As I’ve already told Mike, I’m not a ‘heretic hunter’…no more than John the Baptist or Jesus Christ (and no, I don’t consider myself to be ‘on par’ with them), but the thing is that I tell the truth, I express myself honestly (or at least I’m learning to) and sometimes people don’t like it. Either way, I mean you no harm and I have no ill intent.
, NO.
Passion? Oh yes. I have passion.
Conviction? You bet.
Bad intentions? I assure you, at least in these matters
I don’t condemn. That’s not my job. If anything, I desire that all people would come to the Truth.
No, this has to do with things in the unseen realm, which are constantly at work in all men.
My motivation for responding clearly and honestly to this has nothing to do with fear. It has to do with care.
To answer your questions,…
I actually like it when the Lord uses something or someone to stretch my understanding of Him, Brittian, and He certainly has through many people…, be it scripture, books, sermons, messages, conversations, blogs, emails, etc…
But what I find most interesting is that nearly everything that I have read, or heard which spoke of something ‘new’ or ‘deeper’ than what I was walking in at the time, I already had a sense deep inside about. In other words, it always has come down to an ‘inner witness’ which gave me the ‘amen’ in my heart, which confirms the things being said.
So from the start, of course there is nothing but immaturity, and childlike thoughts, yet still, deep down, there is some sense of ‘knowing’ the truth, although it might not be right up on the surface…and surely, I have not always walked in it as I have not always told it….and still there is much weakness in me.
There are many ‘things’ that I do not know, but I have peace with that, and yes, certainly I have been deceived in various areas.
But there is growth, as you know, and there is maturity, and we get closer and closer, as we draw more and more near to He who is Truth, we begin discovering, more and more why we don’t have any need for men to teach us and we learn more about enjoying that ‘anointing which teaches us all things’.
Have I attained? Of course not.
Have I tasted and am I learning?
By His mercy and His grace.
I’m sure that Mr. Miles has some insight to offer,but whatever the case, if it does not harmonize with the Truth that I have living inside of me, I have no use for it (and maybe it does…).
So…what I’m getting at is, I appreciate the ‘dare’, but I’m really not interested..not right now anyway. Thanks though.
Again, I’m not afraid of His change at all, and yet I will guard against deception.
Will you?
Why would it not be okay for God to change?
Let me answer you with another question:
In what way would you want God to change and why?…and feel free to leave scripture, ‘theology’, and emotion out as well… (however I would say that trying to leave the emotion and knowledge, etc… out would go against much of what you have been discovering lately…, but, whatever).
ON “KNOWING”
Of course this has to do with more than head knowledge alone, but Brittian, I think that we have both discovered that the intellect does not necessarily do a disservice to God or His purposes, in fact, it can play a major role in understanding and communicating the things of God when illuminated by His Holy Spirit….amen? Amen.
Hopefully I have answered your comments in a satisfactory way, if not just hit me up again later. Also, feel free to email if you would like a more ‘personal’ conversation about these things. Otherwise…
Peace to you, Brittian, in Christ,
~J
I’d like to add to this, that I will let God be God. Who am I to be His counselor? “What if..”.as Paul said, God did it “this way” instead of “that way”?
I choose to let God be God (which He will Be if I choose so or not), and let Him decide ‘how’ He is, not me.
All that I can attempt to do is convey how I know Him personally. A theoretical explanation of how God is will never do anyone any kind of good anyway…., amen?
Wotta discussion! And yes indeed Johnny, you are a voice in the conversation. Speaking as someone who knows you both from Adam, I’d like to (re)assure you both that each of you are beloved children (maybe even ‘young men’
in God and have the best of motives. With that said…I won’t speak for BB, but I’d love some clarification on some things you said…
Now, instead of following your advise to throw the scripture out
Now I always get skittish when someone slips into British spelling to make a point (’advise’…that’s a joke
)…when did Brittian advise us to throw out Scripture? I happen to know that Brittian loves the Bible, lives and breathes and eats its words…he’s not a bad Bible teacher. He’s just not beholden to modernity or foundationalism these days. But which is the more vital to God–Holy Writ or a philosophical era past its prime? I’ll take the wild, uncontainable words of Scripture over men’s changeless systematic theologies any day.
And by the way, I thought you liked Velvet Elvis. That’s what’s Brittian’s last post was about…and if you listen to Rob Bell’s messages, this is what he’s teaching too.
It is the Goodness of God’s character (His Spirit?), of His person, which acts as the medium to effect change in the life of the believer.
Yes, quite! Amen…
However, when brothers and sisters begin to move ‘bad’ qualities around, and classify them as ‘good’ qualities, or “acceptable” qualities, they do damage to our own image of God, i.e. We lie about God’s nature, to our selves and others and therefore prove to be in alignment not with God and His true goodness, but with the evil one and his deception.
But when on earth have we done this? And no need to be ‘nice,’ I know if you’re not referring to BB or I then you’re referring to *one* of my friends in the emerging conversation or beyond…I’ve just never heard anyone call ‘evil’ ‘good’…followers of Jesus in ‘the emerging way’ are some of the most ethical, concerned about mirroring God’s character people I know.
But what is wrong with caring enough for the Lord and His people to speak up when things are being said and done, in His name, which are, by their very nature, detrimental and destructive?
Again, I’m highly curious as to what it is that you see as ‘destructive’–goodness me! I’d love to know; I might not be artistically astute enough to glean it from your poem…
There is a mass push and sway going on in much of what many people call ‘Christianity” designed to corrupt the hearts and minds of God’s people.
Now this, to be quite blunt with a brother, makes me angry. What on earth are you talking about? If you mean the word-faith movement or televangelists I could understand, but I get the distinct impression that you’re talking about us…how, precisely, are we ‘corrupting the hearts and minds of God’s people’?
Granted, we are talking about some pretty weighty issues. Judgement, eschatology, the character and nature of God, hell, God’s kingdom and shalom on earth, etc.. These are serious conversations. (Something BB recently pointed out to me, btw. We should all exercise prudence when and where we talk about what.) But we should take a tip from our Jewish cousins, and also learn to have fun with theology–irony and play and poetry (you got that one down!) and laughter. Because God is present in all of these conversation–even ones on blogs and message boards! And I think that God is laughing–sometimes at, but most of the time us…if we’re willing to laugh too.
Maybe God changes, maybe God doesn’t–but consider this, Johnny: You’re not a Muslim. The cornerstone of Muslim faith is Islam or surrender. Subservience. Total negation of the will before God. This too is the stated goal of many Christians, including some mystics whom we sometimes admire. But I submit to you that the Jewish way, and the way of Jesus, is not one of mindless one-way ‘submission’ to God. Because while God loves worship, there is one thing God loves even more: Relationship. And relationship involves dialogue; relationship involves back-and-forth. Relationship sometimes even involves disagreement…wrestling. Abraham. Moses. Friends of God. Why? They talked to God—challenged God on God’s ethics. “Israel” means one who wrestles with God, the name the Angel of the Lord himself gave to Jacob after a night of wrestling for a blessing. Did God punish any of these people—mortal men—for daring to question the Almighty? No. He loved them for it. (Well, he did seem to get ticked at Job, but I suppose that was the mood God was in at that time.) Jesus wrestled with the Father—some would say that Jesus reinterpreted the God-images of ancient Judaism, and that he continues to challenge the God-images we construct today.
Brother, I’m not trying to build a religion on constantly questioning God. Nor do I think I’m smarter or cuter than those who have gone before us in Bible days or Church history. But I do think the writer of Ecclesiastes was full of it when he said there was no new thing under the sun. I mean honestly, who gets their theology from Ecclesiastes?
What it comes down to, and I know this may sound rather “old school” to you, is that there is much today that is being preached straight from the ‘flesh’ of fallen humanity, and it resonates with the very same flesh.
I am always open to the possibility that something I believe or practice comes from a place that is less than God’s leading…and as you were candid in your reply, I know that there are places in my life that most certainly are less than the winds of Holy Spirit…but I honestly don’t think that these spiritual conversations are among those areas. I think that even in the blazing center of God’s revelation of Jesus Christ there is a core of impenetrable Mystery, much like the very center of an eye’s iris…there is something unfathomable, unspeakable. And I honor this. As well as the Revelation. Both interact, like one of Ezekiel’s wheels within wheels…I am quite confident to dance with other Lovers, in that whirling dance that is older than time but ever new.
Thanks for your affirmation, Mike. You’ve given me the strength to put away my binky.
Let me see if I can clarify some of these concerns for you.
This little line was in response to this little line here:
So there ya go.
And to be a little more precise in answering his question, His “changelessness” connects so strongly, because He is “the same yesterday, today, and forever”.
Even though that “sameness” includes His wonder and mystery, His character cannot change. God is good….”let God be true, and every man a liar”.
I agree that mens systematic theologies are weak in comparison to the written Word of God. But just as Brittian has recently expressed, we all have our theologies…our thoughts on God, and hopefully they are not based on personal experience alone but are also checked alongside those who have gone before us, supported by and reinforced by the holy writ, rather than in opposition to it…not to say that our understanding of scripture does not change as we go on, of course.
Mike, I do like Bells, Velvet Evils….uh..I mean Elvis (
tee hee…thought you would appreciate the humor there.)
Actually, I do think that it is important to be ‘nice’ in talking about these things, and this is something that I struggle with.
But like I said, I’m not a ‘heretic hunter’, and so I’m not interested in posting my ‘MOST WANTED” lists around bloggy-land.
That said, I will give you an example of an issue that I take with the rules of the Emergent game.
On your own blog (and we have already discussed this a bit) among the other rules…uh, there is #4 which states:
4. There is no place of irreducible certainty (foundation)
Here was Brittians own personal reaction to this ‘rule’:
…you said:
Brother, I am delighted in your own confession of Jesus being the foundation of your faith, and I believe you, truly,… but, in spite of your stated understanding of what ‘rule #4′ is, … ‘rule #4′ nor any of the other ‘rules’, include that declaration. In fact, rule #4, in itself, denies the possibility of such a declaration.
Anyone have a hammer? I have some jell-o that I need to hang.
This should satisfy your curiosity as to the main thing that I deem destructive: Doubt.
To be unsure of the Lord Jesus, which may well be a moment or a season in the life of a believer, should never, ever be a prerequisite for a ‘game’ aimed at the Lords people…especially those who may not be that well grounded in the first place.
So, no need to be angry with me Mike. Not unless you find yourself as one who believes that there is no need for a solid foundation in the Lord Jesus Christ….even then…I am not the One who has established this absolute.
Mike, you know yourself that I am no stranger to wrestling with the Almighty, but in the end, He wins. The one and only prayer “model”, given us by Jesus Himself CLEARLY teaches us to deisre that not our own will would be done but His.
I know what it means to have God ‘break a hip’. Brother, I walk with a limp because of my own arrogant temptings of the Lord, and yes, I’m better for it,…now.
I don’t have a problem asking God questions, but the ‘hip-ness’ of doubt, has taught me this much:
Go to Him in a spirit of genuine humility, and ask with thanksgiving, and listen, and he will give His true wisdom.
Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher; all is vanity.
Fear God and Keep His Commandments
Besides being wise, the Preacher also taught the people knowledge, weighing and studying and arranging many proverbs with great care. The Preacher sought to find words of delight, and uprightly he wrote words of truth.
The words of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings; they are given by one Shepherd.
My son, beware of anything beyond these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.
One last word from me here on this…
Brittian and Mike,
in spite of my rants here, please keep in mind not only the things that I say which may be offensive to you, but please look at everything that I am saying here.
Again, there is much that I have ‘amened’ in what you have both said (just look over my comments again), just as both of you have ‘amened’ much of what I have said. But in general my concern is with a movement which seeks to pull the rug out from any recognition of absolutes in reality or the nature of God, a movement which is very much like a serpent; low lying, camouflaged, slow moving, but with a quick strike and a deadly bite.
Folks, you can giggle all you want.
Mike, did I ever say that you personally have been swept up in this movement? No.
Brittian, did I say that about you?
No.
Is this movement isolated within the Emergent Church conversation?
Of course not.
It’s rampant, working through many different people in many different places and it is not anything new.
Am I concerned that you two might be getting closer to the snake nest?
Absolutely. Forgive me for my heartfelt concern.
I’m not here to be a ‘cop’…but then again, in a way, I do feel compelled to ’serve and protect’.
I know that that may not be cool anymore…but I shaved my goatee years ago (again, forgive me, any goatee wearers out there…no offense).
(Actually, I wear a beard now, but that’s kind of beside the point)
(How am I doing with the irony and humor?)
Was my initial post here spurred on by some things that Brittian shared on his blog? Yes, I’ve already clarified that. Did the post over at Mikes blog , the one with the rules to the Emergent conversation, play a part in my reaction to Brittians post? Yes, and I think that if you read through all of these comments here, you will find that articulated.
Of the many metaphors which scripture uses to ‘explain’ God we must recognize that some of them are ’structural’ in nature, while others are ‘organic’.
Whatever the case, it is Christ who is the FOUNDATION, or the VINE….and everything that is good and true is built upon Him or grows out from Him.
By the way, Mike, I’ve always loved Ecclesiastes!
Wow…you guys are amazing…I just like reading it…more importantly I enjoy reading about me…that’s a privilege I have never had. I feel so…misquoted.
I get, now, why you said that I was encouraging you (particularly) to throw out Scripture…I think, as with literally everything, if you would have taken it in the context of the paragraph I was saying it in–though I probably should have been more clear–I was asking for more than your theological answer…when I said, “emotions”, I was with supreme lack of clarity asking for your emotions…why does His changelessness affect you so. It seems that this really has had an impact on you and so I was curious about that personal impact. I understand that the text says “He is the same yesterday, today, and forever”…But that is precisely what I was asking you to go beyond…why does THAT particular passage and THAT particular characteristic minister to you so much? I was challenging you to go beyond theoretics, beyond knowledge of reality, and into the depth of reality itself…which I think is truly why this means so much to you, why it has your dander up, because it touches some bit of your person, some core in your own story. So…though I don’t know you from Adam I was asking for a little personal disclosure and asking why out of a bazillion verses and themes in Scripture this one seems to have radiated enough in you to actually start to speak out against those who seem to counter that position…(emphasis on the word “SEEM”).
Let me move on to forever state, along with Mike’s testimony, I together with Derrida and Luther am willing to say “the Text is everything” and “Sola Scriptura”…I distinctly believe in it’s relevance…to me it is not just another tool a believer has…I believe it is the living disclosure of the living God…I believe, as I have said elsewhere, that the Bible is not just God breathed, but is literally God breathing…right now, in and out of me…and I believe that our present community, here and now, plays a part in the “real time writing” of that book…how we interpret it is as good as “participating” in it’s writing…and so we must constantly seek the prophetic imagination and Divine Inspiration or Revelation. We are so needy of that.
I am not one of those people who randomly spouts scripture…it’s to precious to make it serve my own end and provide me with the “easy” answers I am looking for. Nor do I encourage people to approach Scripture in a way that is anything less than reverent of it’s peculiar God breathedness.
That having all been said…I think that the myth of objectivity which modernism has so often fallen into assumes that at the end of the day there is something beyond interpreting the world around us…come on…even with the things we don’t think about, the things that are habit, we are constantly filtering and interpreting…and so we must be humble and constantly dependent on the Holy Spirit.
Ok…so…I say all that to clarify my deep and overwhelming love of His Story…which are not verses in a vacuum but were written by real people to real people dealing with real problems, and rather than unpack them in my context (forcing them to take the long walk from 1st century AD to a time they never envisioned or could relate to) I must be willing to make the walk to their context and their time and unpack me in the midst of their (read His) story.
Johnny, i distinctly agree with you when you say that we need the voices of those who have gone before us in interpreting that Text, His Story. It would be ignorant and blind to not do so. It would be equally ignorant and blind to not realize that those who have commentated and stated before us also did so from their own point of view and vantage…I need to recognize not only my bias, not only the bias of the original writers, but also the bias of those commenting…having taken all those things into account, I think there is one final component…the immediacy of the community or context I now am in…they ultimately become the arbitors of what an appropriate reading of Scripture is. Together, in community, we are able to have a 3-D conversation where these things become real.
Your later comments, I think, collate objectivity with “knowing” or “truth” and I can’t make that jump. I believe in those words “Knowing” and “Truth” but don’t make the same application that you do (I perceive) in associating them the ability to be objective in that knowing of that truth. I appreciate the posture you have in this and respect that this is where you are, I admire your certainty but cannot mirror it in myself.
I’ve recently said to Mike, as he alluded to, that we have a need to be cautious in working through many of these thoughts out loud–and that there may and may not be appropriate or at least optimal audiences to receive such dialog. The unfortunate reality is that many of the words and the aspects of understanding that I am trying on for size get labeled as my permanent attire…I’d rather not be labeled in any one clique just because I have an extensive wardrobe for the time…and similarly, I recognize that your positions–though admirably decisive and “absolute”–are your immediate perspectives…change is the ultimate constant…and we all have experienced enough of that to understand in five years we may each be some place very different…all part of the journey.
Recently you commented on my blog about the arrogance of intellectuals…and I would comment equally on the arrogance of absolutists…it is, I suspect, the same arrogance we’re dealing with here…the sense of arrivedness and knowingness…which, to those of us who are truly “working out (fleshing out/making real) our own salvation with (a high degree) of fear and trembling” is inscrutable and beyond us…truly mystifying…
And while I am not suggesting that you are arrogant…you are right when you say that sometimes your passion can come across as “preachy” (my words…not yours…paraphrase). It reminds me of something Witness Lee used to say about passionate brothers…”We love a brother to be zealous and hot for the Lord…but sometimes when the water is too hot, when it is boiling, it cannot be drank and so it is useless and cannot be consumed…” This is something I am constantly learning…I come across this way often, and am need of Holy Spirit to reprove and teach me.
Bro…thanks for being a part of the conversation…thanks for offering your perspectives and perceptions. I probably need to be more cautious in what I write as it can be construed or used in ways I didn’t intend or do not believe (again…not saying that YOU did this, but rather that others might do this and be led astray in aspects that I wouldn’t advocate). Thank you for caring as much as you do…
I trust that you are discovering in all and everything more and more each day,
Brittian
To be clear, I wasn’t suggesting that you wanted to ‘throw out’ scripture for all time…
Truth is always a balance of the objective and subjective…
The unchanging nature of God…He may express Himself differently and as He pleases, but all in all, He is good and not evil, and therefore there must always be those with the discernment to know the difference.
This is a work of the Holy Spirit and is a fruit of those who are maturing in the Lord, not just a doctrine which seeks to create judgmental human beings.
May we all grow up into this more and more.
Hopefully by now, I have disclosed enough for you to know where I am coming from and why.
Nice metaphor with the wardrobe.
I look at it more like a garden, with lots of different trees to eat from….
But we all know about that…..
Right?
Peace, Brother
I’m sure we will get to meet one day…
In fact, I know we will, One Day…
In a misguided attempt to jump into this conversation, lol, I want to just say this:
God as far as our benefit and His will towards us, does not change. Nothing in God is unclear.
People change massively, and we are usually very confused.
So let us not confuse God with ourselves. People have all sorts of problems with coming to terms with God, and those problems should be addressed openly and in a spirit of love without whippin out the H word (heretic) or even implying it.
At the same time, we should all be forthcoming in admitting that the confusion is all ours, not God’s.
Anyone who ascribes lack of clarity to God is simply mistaken. Lack of clarity in our understanding? Ya, no doubt, sometimes we humans can be confused by chewing gum and walking at the same time. 
Amen, Robert.
God is not the author of confusion.
Thanks for stopping by with your input.
God is good, and He is good to and for you.
It’s kind of funny…but looking at my original post here….
it’s so simple.
It’s amazing how many words had to be used to ’support’, ‘defend’, ‘argue’, ‘dispute’, ‘prove’, ‘contend’, ‘elaborate’….
Even though often times it does take words to convey information…, truth even…, I can’t help but to recognize what Solomon says in Ecclesiastes as down right true:
The words of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings; they are given by one Shepherd.
My son, beware of anything beyond these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.
Maybe I’ll write a book about it…
Wow…so much conversation. I’m in DC right now, and have little to say…
But of course I’ll muster a few things.
One, when Brittian said “take away verses,” I’m pretty sure he meant take away isolated proof-texting (what ‘verses’ often stand for)…not the Bible. I thought that meaning was plain. I mean c’mon, what good are we as former Edwardian disciples if we can’t take a reference to verses that way!
The passage where God told Israel he was “I am the Lord thy God–I change not” was actually–in context–a way of God’s declaring God’s change in relationship to Israel! It’s a perfectly honest, yet hyperbolic way of speaking of God’s new resolution in his ongoing (and dynamic) relationship with Israel. And this to me is Exhibit A in how the Greek philosophical mind interprets dynamic Hebrew sayings into once-and-for-all static-Greek ideas. Not that I mind Greek ideas–the mystical tradition is indebted to them. But sometimes our ideas of God can be misconstrued from such misreadings of our Bible.
I agree with both of you that we should listen respectfully to those who have gone before…and to God! But that those who have gone before, and God, also appreciate a good conversation.
There are no emergent ‘rules’…these were some elements that one guy thought were common in the conversation. And people are perfectly free to see this differently–I am sure that plenty who consider themselves ‘emerging’ do.
And here’s the crux of our disagreement, I guess: I’m not a foundationalist. I am perfectly fine confessing God’s disclosure in Christ as central, as integral, as the permeating aroma of Reality…but the idea of philosophical ‘foundationalism’ (and the way many verses in English-translation Bibles are marshaled to support this) just doesn’t resonate with me. Please know that its not like I think something or someone else is foundational–I’m just not into the “foundation” idea.
But I’m ALSO not going to die on this hill! It doesn’t bother me one whit that you consider Christ “foundational.” Its a perfectly durable way of expressing oneself.
And its interesting that you see the emerging conversation as trying to encourage a culture of agnosticism–I see it, rather, as being more honest and transparent abut the doubts and ambiguities that we all already have, and not trying to condemn them–but instead to befriend them and learn from them. I guess I don’t see being open-ended as a vice at the end of the day, certainly not a snake in the grass. I see most of the prophets wrestle with doubt, all the apostles, even Jesus–while trust is certainly a virtue I don’t think that doubt is our enemy, but rather a way to lean more deeply into trust. Both come in cycles.
Anyway, Johnny, I’ll be back in town sometime this summer…mebbe we can grab a brew (or a tea, or a glass of milk) and chat about this more…hopefully I’ll be a bit clearer, will have more of a clue as to what I’m talking about, after I take this class. Until then, may the One in Whom we live, move, and have our being continue to support us and challenge us!
Hi Mike.
Let me try, again, to clarify that I was never trying to insinuate that Brittian has or ever had the desire to permanently eliminate scripture as a factor in our lives, minds, hearts, bookshelves,….whatever.
I honestly thought that anyone reading his comments first, would have the context necessary for understanding my reply. I can see, though, clearly, that I am also guilty of not clearly conveying my own thoughts and ideas. I apologize.
I appreciate your thoughts on the verse you mention.
The relationship is still about God drawing His people out of darkness and bringing them into the Light…, it is still and will always be God, who is ‘good’ loving and saving ’sinners’, those who are evil, and transforming their lives, working out His eternal purpose.
Regardless if one is a dispensationalist, a covenant eschatologist, a ‘mystic’, or whatever…., but God, by His very nature, is good, and this cannot change.
I may doubt. I may question. I may shake my fist. I may do think or say many other things, but God is good.
Again, Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.
I don’t think there is any argument here. I know that I don’t have one.
Mike, it doesn’t bother me one bit that you don’t resonate with the idea of ‘foundationalism’. In fact, it doesn’t resonate with me either.
Maybe becuase I don’t really know what it is(?)
Now maybe thats just the uneducated hillbilly side of me creeping out, you know the arrogant one…
but nonetheless, Paul’s own metaphor of Christ being the foundation of the church resonates with me BIG TIME.
I get it, and I like it, and it resonates with my own personal sense of Him being the solid rock on which I stand.
Not that He isn’t also the flowing River in which I swim…
or the Air that I breathe, or the Vine of which I am a branch, etc…
Mike, perhaps you have misread what I’ve said.
I never accused the E.C. of being ‘the snake’.
In fact, I clearly said that ‘the snake’ finds his way around all over the place, including the E.C. In fact, he finds his way around my own heart and yours as well.
Which leads me to my next point. Doubt is not a virtue. It is not something to be celebrated. Expressed? We express whatever is going on inside of us, and in a sense it is something of a confession.
We all go through it and we all deal with it, but ‘at the end of the day’ what we are after is more faith in God, and I think that you would agree with that. The Great Physician came to heal the sick…He came to fill the void of doubt with the substance of faith.
‘Whatever is not of faith, is sin…”
I would love to hang out and talk, and I look forward to it.
Thank you, kind sir, for your comments.
~Johnny
Not much to add here accept that I too affirm that God is good, trustworthy, consistent, etc… I think that metaphors like a “rock” definitely apply. I am glad that God is the Center and I am not!
Talk to you later,
Mike
J…you have got to show me how to do those cool quotation marks you do–they are awesome…I am seriously jealous.
Brittian,
Sure, but you can only do them on your own blog, one that you can [Edit] from.
So…you post your comment, or select one that has been posted to your blog, then click [Edit], then when your edit screen appears you highlight the text that you want ‘quoted’, hit the “b-quote” button and then….
Go crazy, man!
Doubt and certainty seem to be the central issue here, that is, the main area of disagreement. I sense that the centrality of Jesus is the central issue of AGREEMENT, and I prefer agreement to disagreement, but I also prefer truth to the lie and I think it’s healthy to express our disagreements in a respectful and caring kind of way (which let me hasten to say is mostly what I am picking up in this whole dialogue/argument in general). You guys like each other or are really trying to. But I think you all agree that it’s not good to pretend to agree where we just don’t.
Let me submit one more observation about the area of disagreement, in the “for-what-it’s-worth” category [which is where I would put nearly all of my comments anyway]:
It seems to me that the central area of disagreement here is properly philosophical rather than theological. There is not a huge amount of arguing about the nature of God. Johnny’s continual insistence that God is good is not being met by any opposition that I can see. Mike and Brittian’s acceptance of the absolute necessity of revelation and grace for us to experience Truth and Reality is right up Johnny’s alley. God is God, absolutely, and He communicates Himself to us redemptively by His Spirit–the areas of theological agreement here are profound and worthy of celebrating. If this were not so, this ‘conversation’ would probably have been dead a long time ago.
But the philosophical disagreement is very real. And it has to do with how much we can be absolutely sure of what we know, particularly about the absolute God.
I heard in a question from Brittian to Johnny a psychological dimension as well: why do you feel the need for such certainty? Of course we all have this psychological need; we just interpret the importance and validity of our response to it differently.
I’m not offering the perfect answer or conclusion to all this; I think I’ll close this comment by using Johnny’s term of doubt, and re-ask the question: Is Doubt our friend or our enemy? In John Bunyan’s classic Pilgrim’s Progress, “Honest Inquiry” was a cover-up name used by an internal enemy whose real identity was “Evil Questioning.” So this is not a new part of the conversation….
It looks like some people see doubt as an enemy to fight, inspired by evil; others see doubt as an ally, purging the extraneous stuff out of the repertory of our belief systems, and leaving them clean and mean and thoroughly verified. Or to put it another way, some of us are afraid of our doubts, figuring they might lead us away from the substance of truth and joy we have found in Jesus; others welcome their doubts because their experience has been that a vision of Jesus as He is at the center of things has conquered and will continue to conquer all the doubts no matter how big and bad they have been.
So so we cultivate our doubts or reject them; do we see them as insidious enemies or harmless allies?
Again, what place does FAITH have in all this?
I do have some pretty strong opinions on some of this, and a kind of well-worked-out epistemological theory that has seemed to work for me, though it is probably pretty shallow as such theories go. But I will refrain from sharing these right now and close with a story:
After leaving a highly organized church group a while back and ‘floating’ for a while, I visited a hillbilly storefront church where they were singing an original song that went like this:
“I love you Jesus in my plain old country way.”
As much as I wished I could say that, I simply could not. My way of loving Jesus is not like that, and I guess never can be. I trust and hope that I can love Him alongside of others who love Him in very different ways than I do, philosophically, psychologically, theologically. I am glad these arguments are mostly respectful.
I pray for all concerned, that the love of the Truth would overwhelm all our lesser emotions or concepts and bring us closer to the unity of Spirit that Jesus was so obsessed about for us.
Yours in Him,
Peter
Hello once again, Peter!
Again, I really appreciate your comments.
I think that what is most important, when it comes to faith, doubt, or whatever, is the virtue of honesty, …of expressing ourselves honestly.
If we have doubts, we should clearly express it. If we have faith, then we should clearly express that as well.
Although I am much better at this now than I used to be, unfortunately I have yet to learn how to better season my conversation with the grace necessary to make it pallet able, much less to keep folks coming back for more.
I just need more time with the Master Chef, that’s all.
Now even these two terms, faith and doubt, can mean different things at different times, and surely we shouldn’t just try to pick them up and ‘use’ them as we see fit.
In other words, if I decided that I wanted to go and commit adultery because I had the ‘faith’ to do so, I’m pretty sure that would be a classic case of self deception. In this case so called “faith” would not be a good thing to employ. Amen?
But before I sidetrack anymore here…let me just say that I totally believe that God desires that our faith in Himself and therefore also in His Son, Jesus, to increase, and that, just as acknowledgment of sin is necessary to receive pardon and forgiveness, so also is the acknowledgment of doubt before we are able to ask for more faith.
Honestly, I believe that it is a good thing that the current popularity of ‘agnosticism’ in the church has come to the surface, but not because it is a good thing in itself, rather, for many (although not all) it is something of an open confession, an honest expression of unbelief.
As I’ve already stated a couple of times this week, at least in one sense, doubt, to me, seems like empty space which needs to be filled with God.
That said, it truly is my most sincere hope, that any and all people who struggle with unbelief, especially in the professing Christian community, would enter into a new season of genuine faith, hope and love in the Lord Jesus Christ, just as I pray for His genuine faith, hope and love to increase in me.
Peace
~J
Wow Johnny…I can’t say I’ve read all of the responses to the initial post. But I did read Mike’s first response and yours (the one about walking with a limp). I’d have to sum up that post as a call for “holy fear”. This is a dated thought and was dropped or mis-taught but it’s biblical. That’s right I said it. Throughout the entire biblical narrative affectionate reverence and submission to God is both urged and demanded. Yes God desires more than worship but this does not negate worship. In reality spiritual worship is not the opposite of worship but the fullness of it. Obedience is a part of relationship. Faithfulness is a part of relationship. Service is a part of relationship. This is not going to change no matter the shift in mans mind.
We try so often to share our fleshly life with God. As if he is after a mixture because He loves us and embraces our humanity. While some of this is true isn’t God working toward the transformation of our humanity? Isn’t Christ the fullness of what real humanity is? Let’s look at this.
Not my will…
I can do nothing…
Why do you call me good?
I only do…
Then to us:
You can do nothing
You are the branch
Not my will but… (As you noted in the Lord’s prayer)
In some of these very passages or close to them Jesus also says things like
you are small…you can do nothing….but if you ask…because the Father is a GOOD FATHER he will answer you…take care of you…provide for you….forgive you….embrace you.
The ideas are not separate there are one in the same. The method for gaining life is by losing it.
What I often find is that we attempt to life the Spirit governed and led life through our own human ability. As if God has come to make the old is new and improved. When in actuality He is in the business of replacing the old entirely. No matter how hard we think about it the mind of this present age is not going to come up with the answers to God’s nature or work. On the Spirit who searches the deep things and reveals them to us ( As Paul says: Spiritual wisdom communicated with Spiritual words to those who have the Spirit).
As far as doubt is concerned…”anything not done in faith is sin” look that one up! It is our faith in Him that makes us His. Yet it is not what we choose to believe about Him that makes Him who He is. To wrestle with God is not loving him. In fact, those parts of us that would question and bicker are old and weak. The new mind, the mind of Christ accepts God as He is moment by moment. To question out of doubt is a dangerous habit. To question for the sake of knowledge only is self seeking. To question in the pursuit of knowing Him and becoming more like Him is what pleases God. I believe Mike, Johnny, Brittian, and I are all after this.
I could write a book on this stuff but I’ll finish by challenging Mike’s claim of Jesus re-framing God.
1. Jesus pettioned for another way in the garden He wasn’t arguing with God.
2. Jesus did not recreate the image of God He is the image of God and until He life and afterward much of the Hebrew understanding of God was wrong.
3. Jesus may have changed the world’s (especially Jews) view of God but He did not Change God’s view of Himself.
“In reality spiritual worship is not the opposite of worship but the fullness of it.”
What I mean here is spiritual worship is not the opposite of relationship.